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trev45
Joined: 15 Jun 2011 Posts: 449 Location: Sydney Australia
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Posted: Tue Feb 18, 2020 6:48 am Post subject: |
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Love it , great to see different stuff |
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2bims
Joined: 03 Apr 2010 Posts: 7289
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Posted: Wed Feb 19, 2020 10:01 pm Post subject: |
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This "may" sound silly to ask....but have you test fitted all the plumbing and pipes and tubes and link pipes to the engine insitu in the frame?...Are have you gone a different route metaphorically and physically?...You seem to have 3 frame rails coming down the RHS past the clutch cover where theres a largish alloy tube and hosing from the rear cylinder that curls from the back of the rear clylinder….round and down and round the front of the clutch cover in the "standard" set-up...Just checking if you've made room for that? |
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2bims
Joined: 03 Apr 2010 Posts: 7289
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Posted: Wed Feb 19, 2020 10:12 pm Post subject: |
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The outlet pipe low down on the back of the rear cylinder also looks awfully close to your rear shock spring
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2bims
Joined: 03 Apr 2010 Posts: 7289
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Posted: Wed Feb 19, 2020 10:16 pm Post subject: |
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This is the rear outlet....where theres normally a 90 degree bend around to the right....RHS of the bike...a tube...a rubber fitting and a Right hand bended allot tube that dog legs around the front face of the clutch cover to the inlet in front of the rear cylinder at the front....there an inlet and an outlet
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Gavin944888
Joined: 29 Jan 2014 Posts: 572 Location: Essex....way South of Scotland
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Posted: Fri Feb 21, 2020 7:25 am Post subject: |
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Hello....2Bims,
I agree it is tight and there is a plan B if nothing fits.
Hopefully it will but I have never built anything and worried about the plumbing.
Admittedly I have the complete V Due cooling system but I have been looking at alternatives
Anyway.......like our woberful PM ...Boris says ‘Let’s just wing it’
More to follow
Gavin
The Scottish Engineer _________________ On an Island in the River Thames!
Cagiva Elefant 888/955 & adventure sidecar
Cagiva Elefant 999r engined
Cagiva BIMOTA Motard Concept
BIMOTA DB9 (with DB11 rear-end)
BIMOTA DB7-11 VLX MULE (build coming to an end)
BIMOTA DB11 VLX Supercharger |
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2bims
Joined: 03 Apr 2010 Posts: 7289
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Posted: Fri Feb 21, 2020 8:25 am Post subject: |
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Phew....I wasn't sure if you had the full cooling kit...I just thought it wise to mention as I wouldn't have forgiven myself if you had an issue later and I hadn't said anything....albeit youre going a different rad route.....I've always thought the plumbing was a bit contrived at best...all sorts of odd fittings and pipe routing....dont like the one across the clutch cover... |
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Gavin944888
Joined: 29 Jan 2014 Posts: 572 Location: Essex....way South of Scotland
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Posted: Fri Feb 21, 2020 4:30 pm Post subject: |
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hello....again!
2Bims...hhmmmm the cooling system I will come to that later in a post, but there were a couple of things that bothered me with the V DUE.
The first one which did not really make sense from an engineering point of view was the inlet manifold.
Moulded rubber tubes sandwiched between 2 alloy plates were not what I expected to see on a quality bike as the Bimota V Due...neither was the cooling system.
Both of which were perfectly adequate but not exactly engineering excellence.......as are other Bimota components.
So....on the first point, I decided to machine a new inlet manifold and spigot mount some off the shelf spigots to fit the carbs.
Searching the web for inlet spigots I stumbled accross FRP....Fielder Racing Products.
I was so impressed, I bought their inlet manifold, spigots and a set of Power Jet carbs.
Over and above this Guido of FRP has supplied a servo motor for the exhaust valves, a Zeeltronic ignition system, a set of coils and various other bits to asist in the build.
In fact, the bike is going to FRP in Germany immediately after all wiring (by Ferret the Spark) to be set up and dyno tested.
I was planning to give all the wiring to X Bikes, as they built race bikes from scratch....
But, I cannot give another project to the same company who has not finished the first project....the DB11 VLX mule....as yet
[img]IMAG0569 by bear (as in animal ..not gay idol), on Flickr[/img]
Anyway.............the quality and design of the FRP inlet manifold was a joy......proper engineering stuff.
The frame was steadied and a strap slung over it in order the yokes and forks could be fitted.
First was the yokes and after everything was greased and refitted the bearing dust cap could be measured and turned up in the lathe.
[img]IMAG0555 by bear (as in animal ..not gay idol), on Flickr[/img]
[img]IMAG0556 by bear (as in animal ..not gay idol), on Flickr[/img]
Next was to loctite all handlebar fixings and final fit the top yoke for the WP forks.
[img]IMAG0557 by bear (as in animal ..not gay idol), on Flickr[/img]
There was confusion on the forks and disc set up......I wanted a single big disc 330mm and a 6 pot single caliper in a set of Marzocchi 50 Magnums.
I have used these before and they are fantastic......but others (2Bims being one of them) were concerned about the sanity of a single disc on a V Due engined bike.
So..... I used a set of KTM forks and a set of PFM discs that I picked up for my ST3 elefant project next year.
[img]IMAG0560 by bear (as in animal ..not gay idol), on Flickr[/img]
[img]IMAG0558 by bear (as in animal ..not gay idol), on Flickr[/img]
Now with the wheel spindle, spacers and brake calipers fitted
[img]IMAG0562 by bear (as in animal ..not gay idol), on Flickr[/img]
I was not going 'all modern' on the calipers.....these Brembo units represented the best on offer in 1999
[img]IMAG0565 by bear (as in animal ..not gay idol), on Flickr[/img]
More to follow
Gavin
The Scottish Engineer _________________ On an Island in the River Thames!
Cagiva Elefant 888/955 & adventure sidecar
Cagiva Elefant 999r engined
Cagiva BIMOTA Motard Concept
BIMOTA DB9 (with DB11 rear-end)
BIMOTA DB7-11 VLX MULE (build coming to an end)
BIMOTA DB11 VLX Supercharger
Last edited by Gavin944888 on Fri Feb 21, 2020 5:29 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Gavin944888
Joined: 29 Jan 2014 Posts: 572 Location: Essex....way South of Scotland
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Posted: Fri Feb 21, 2020 5:23 pm Post subject: |
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Once another ratchet strap was added......it was getting heavier now...we could continue.
[img]IMAG0568 by bear (as in animal ..not gay idol), on Flickr[/img]
I started to offer up the radiators and choose which one was best suited, whilst James got on the lathe.
[img]IMAG0554 by bear (as in animal ..not gay idol), on Flickr[/img]
The welding and powder coating had the effect of narrowing our gap for the swing arm.
[img]IMAG0580 by bear (as in animal ..not gay idol), on Flickr[/img]
The spindle had to reduced over its length (2mm) for the side plates to hold the spindle and swing arm assembly... which is mounted in the frame as one unit.
[img]IMAG0581 by bear (as in animal ..not gay idol), on Flickr[/img]
One thing which came as a shock.. was the fact there were no bearing seperators or bearing tube in the OEM swing arm.
The needle bearings were fitted and held in place by a machined stop....but nothing the ensure that they did not travel towards each other!
A new machined bearing tube which the spindle passes through, was inserted after taking an hour to remove the needle bearings.
The idea of the swingarm pivot plate is .....we can adjust the swing arm pivot position if my calculations are shot.
[img]IMAG0586 by bear (as in animal ..not gay idol), on Flickr[/img]
It took a while to get everything together only to then dismantle and fully grease.
On the second attempt it became slippier and more difficult to get everything to line up.
[img]IMAG0588 by bear (as in animal ..not gay idol), on Flickr[/img]
We eventually machined a home made tool.......a 20mm solid rod, drilled and tapped M14 with Hex head bolts...to act as a jack out bar.
[img]IMAG0590 by bear (as in animal ..not gay idol), on Flickr[/img]
With this bar, we could turn out each bolt with a spanner and after slackenening all engine bolts, we got the clearance to get the swingarm in position and bolted up.
Final side shot on the bench....with the swing arm mounted and ratchet strap still in position.
[img]IMAG0585 by bear (as in animal ..not gay idol), on Flickr[/img]
Whilst James was on the lathe, I was fitting the Ducati 1200 MTS radiator.
[img]IMAG0570 by bear (as in animal ..not gay idol), on Flickr[/img]
I have this one in the garage as I use them on my Cagiva Elefants to cope with the heat of the non standard engines.
[img]IMAG0571 by bear (as in animal ..not gay idol), on Flickr[/img]
But you can see that it was of no use as it hit the carbs and would not sit right.........shame as these are good radiators.
A chance meeting with a Supertwins racer and I picked up a radiator for the 650 Kawasaki twin..... all alloy and triple core.
[img]IMAG0574 by bear (as in animal ..not gay idol), on Flickr[/img]
Held back with cable ties......just to see the lines and check the clearances.
[img]IMAG0573 by bear (as in animal ..not gay idol), on Flickr[/img]
[img]IMAG0576 by bear (as in animal ..not gay idol), on Flickr[/img]
That will do.....just need to fabricate some brackets and a get a small 12volt axial fan......approx 120mm dia...to fit in the gaps.
[img]IMAG0572 by bear (as in animal ..not gay idol), on Flickr[/img]
Time to get it off the bench and start the rear wheel spacing.....but first of all....how does it look!
[img]IMAG0591 by bear (as in animal ..not gay idol), on Flickr[/img]
Admittedly the radiator is held on with cable ties and it fouls the cheapo Chinese filters....just bought for transit and workshop.
[img]IMAG0592 by bear (as in animal ..not gay idol), on Flickr[/img]
But from a 'so far' point of view....it has presence....and promise.
The forks are too hard for the little engine and it is sitting front high.
I still might go for the....50mm Magnums and single disc and really emulate the beefed up SuperCity look.
But there is a timeline.......it has to go to FRP in GERMANY mid APRIL
All fabrication and build must be done by mid March although the seat and bodywork can be added after.
Next up...the suspension rocker arm shock and final fixing of rear wheel...disc carriers etc etc.
More soon.
Gavin
The Scottish Engineer. _________________ On an Island in the River Thames!
Cagiva Elefant 888/955 & adventure sidecar
Cagiva Elefant 999r engined
Cagiva BIMOTA Motard Concept
BIMOTA DB9 (with DB11 rear-end)
BIMOTA DB7-11 VLX MULE (build coming to an end)
BIMOTA DB11 VLX Supercharger |
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Bud977
Joined: 03 Mar 2013 Posts: 525 Location: Sydney
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Posted: Fri Feb 21, 2020 9:16 pm Post subject: |
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Love to see a unique build progressing.
What are your plans for the footpeg brackets? It looks like a lot of tubes sticking out where your feet will go. |
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2bims
Joined: 03 Apr 2010 Posts: 7289
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Posted: Fri Feb 21, 2020 10:30 pm Post subject: |
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Good progress.....Questions time:-
Have you set the HEadstock to be the same angle as the stock Supercity?....Hows the wheelbase compare between that and now...what with the SB8 swinging arm and a bespoke frame being made compared to stock...I'm assuming same angle of attack on Headstock but maybe a slightly longer wheelbase? In order to keep the front wheel down on the ground....Stock Vdues have front wheels that like to reach for the skies in gears 1 to 4.....Stock wheelbase of a Vdue is 52.8inches......Not sure on Supercity...but I'll look at my Supercity brochures and check that out
What is the 3rd "longest" vertical frame support doing?...One is engine mount..another is Swingarm mount.....the 3rd most rear one?....Or is this and the others to hang your footpegs from?
Fan....Hhmm…..Let me be the first to comment and maybe others will chime in.....Its very difficult to know when the fan is on with a vdue.. especially with Joly moto pipes fitted...the ride...the noise ...the thrill...the fear of impending explosion/near death...so difficult to know if it EVER engages whiles running....I tested the thermistor fitted to the rad and think it comes on at 100 degrees...yet engine hardly ever gets that hot...Only ever hear it switch on when I pull over.....stop...switch off...and then hear it kick in old school style...sucking your battery strength....
Last one...You still need to cut and fit a length of threaded rod through the "blank"...what goes there? crankcase halves ...towards the front under the front cylinder...12mm rod from memory...and a couple of 12mm nylock bolts.....A bit like threadlocker on sprag clutch top hats....Pieros boys never fill this blank hole...apparently there from the days it was going to be a frame to engine mount when it was intended to be fitted into a tesi frame for all vdues….12mm threaded rod...couple of nuts a good thumbsuck of That'll be tight enough but not too tight....Dont forget your sprocket on the front is now the right way around? If playing with chain alignment...but again...check with whatever gauge of chain youre going to be using for clearance on the backface of the crankcase halves behind the front sprocket...Got some Oil in the gearbox?....Light gear oil..Putoline I use...I can look at the spec if you like....You buy a litre...it says it needs ).9....its more like 0.8....before it flows out of the overflow hole....which they laughingly call an "oil sight window"...an M6 low head at 10 o'clock if the front sprocket is the clock..youre supposed to remove this when filling with oil and look down this 6mm hole...which is now 5mm with the thread...and stop filling when you see the oil reaches the lip of the hole if the bike is upright and horizontal....Like any mans old eyes are up to that....just keep pouring until oil weeps out....be prepared for a good 30 minutes of this...Even after removal of the "oil filler cap"...you'll find the hole painfully small for filling with oil....and the oil filler cap is a pain also...you need a narrow walled ring spanner with a crank to remove it.....Only Bimota.... |
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Gavin944888
Joined: 29 Jan 2014 Posts: 572 Location: Essex....way South of Scotland
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Posted: Fri Feb 21, 2020 11:29 pm Post subject: |
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Bud977
Foot pegs are going to be fitted to a shaped....arty...piece of 35mm alloy billet.
The billet will attach to the profile between the bosses on the metal side plates.
These will be anodised black and will hold the foot pegs and controls
Hopefully... if I get it right you will not see any fixings...only controls on a billet.
2Bims........the side stand assembly....not fabricated yet ...but it will clamp to the bottom rear engine spacer.
Whilst the front mount for the side stand will pass through the engine and the spare hole
Thanks for the interest....keeps me on my metal
Regards
Gavin
The Scottish Engineer _________________ On an Island in the River Thames!
Cagiva Elefant 888/955 & adventure sidecar
Cagiva Elefant 999r engined
Cagiva BIMOTA Motard Concept
BIMOTA DB9 (with DB11 rear-end)
BIMOTA DB7-11 VLX MULE (build coming to an end)
BIMOTA DB11 VLX Supercharger |
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brian
Joined: 22 Aug 2011 Posts: 3769 Location: Australia
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Posted: Sat Feb 22, 2020 7:35 am Post subject: |
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This is a great build! Watching with interest _________________ '99 DB4 #104, '96 SB6 #1165, '94 DB2 J #652, '99 DB4 #088, '08 VTX1800, '93 ZXR750R M1, '95 ZXR750, '95 ZXR750 Race Bike, '94 CBR400rr NC29 Race Bike, '94 CB250, '49 BSA C10 250, '61 BSA A10 650, '89 ZXR750, '91 Ducati 851 |
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Gavin944888
Joined: 29 Jan 2014 Posts: 572 Location: Essex....way South of Scotland
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Posted: Sat Feb 22, 2020 7:58 am Post subject: |
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2Bims......there are only reference points to the SuperCity, the V Due and this frame.
I wanted longer wheel base than both the SuperCity and the VDue.
The head angle is from the very forgiving Cagiva Elefant as is the offset at 35mm....you will never find that on a Bimota
The rear tube as you mention and the central one are carrying the forces for the swing arm and the bottom engine mount ....to avoid twisting.
The swing arm pivot is not seen from the side as it is between the 2 bosses.
The distance from the centre of the headstock (as you view from the side) to the engine is the similar to the Vdue .
Also the engine is tipped back by a couple of degrees....as per that discussion with The Man in Italy
Other than this it is all fag packet, Zeus book and what looks right whilst trying to keep a theme.
Although both James and I are both time served Engineers....so between the pair of us .......it kind of works.
However I have not been on the tools for 35 years...have you ever seen a jockey who hasn’t been on a horse for that length of time
You get my drift
Gavin
Once an Engineer but still Scottish _________________ On an Island in the River Thames!
Cagiva Elefant 888/955 & adventure sidecar
Cagiva Elefant 999r engined
Cagiva BIMOTA Motard Concept
BIMOTA DB9 (with DB11 rear-end)
BIMOTA DB7-11 VLX MULE (build coming to an end)
BIMOTA DB11 VLX Supercharger |
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2bims
Joined: 03 Apr 2010 Posts: 7289
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Posted: Sat Feb 22, 2020 10:36 am Post subject: |
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Ah....OK....the old "Triangulation 3 point fixing" as regards the downward pointing frame rails.....best for strong fixing and as you say...award twisting......The rear engine to frame mounting bolt "as standard" has many spacers and bespoke pieces....one of which....is kind of out of place....its a black painted cast steel item that works as a spacer...but also as the sidestand mount on the Vdue....so even if you dont have a sidestand like on a race bike...its handy to have as it makes up the space....well thought out engineering at the time...as per Bimota... |
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2bims
Joined: 03 Apr 2010 Posts: 7289
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Posted: Sat Feb 22, 2020 10:41 am Post subject: |
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I get it now.....One last question....and just to show you how closely I'm following this thread....and how glad you'll be that I'm too far away to keep popping down....whos the little tiny man that you've got working on the project?...I assume he's one of the "borrowers"?...It may explain the time taken with this project....lifting a 10mm socket must be a Herculian task for one so small
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