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Diagnoses help required. Electrical issues.
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niels550



Joined: 25 Apr 2016
Posts: 49

PostPosted: Sun Jul 05, 2020 12:11 am    Post subject: Diagnoses help required. Electrical issues. Reply with quote

Hello All.

I'm back home again after 6 months away at work.

Bike, a 3 year old Tesi 3D Naked is always plugged into a battery trickle charger.

So, I decide to go for a ride last week, pull it out of the garage get dressed and press the starter... nothing but the sound of the starter relay clicking.

The battery is at least 3 years old, I'm thinking maybe a cell is buggered. So I go buy a new one and charge it fully and then install it.

Exact same result with the starter rely clicking every time I press the start button. I always have the clutch pulled in when I start.

Other symptoms are:

1) When the key is turned on, all the warning lights come on and go off normally as the system boots up and I presume does it's self check.

2) Neutral light stays out even when I can ascertain the bike is positively in neutral. (Rear wheel spins easily).

3) Indicators don't work.

4) Horn and lights work ok.


The bike was just fine when I put it to bed 6 months ago and it is very low mileage - at 1600 kms.

Any clues where I should be looking next?
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niels550



Joined: 25 Apr 2016
Posts: 49

PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2020 2:53 am    Post subject: Fixed !! Bad ground connections. Reply with quote

OK.. Finally in disgust, I decided to attack it.

Too many elements had failed at the same time (neutral, indicators and starter) to blame any single element - it had to be the only thing they had in common. The electrical power supply.

Armed with a multimeter it became obvious that there was only about 9 volts in the system and then I went down chasing high resistances.

Long and short of it was that I cleaned up most of the terminals along the byzantine circuit path which Bimota laughingly refers to as their ground/negative line.

Turned the key and everything was back to normal. Neutral light was back, indicators worked and bike started.

Total time? About 30 minutes.
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brian



Joined: 22 Aug 2011
Posts: 3769
Location: Australia

PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2020 6:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Glad you got it sorted. Electrics can do your head in, especially on these new bikes with computers etc. They seem to be very sensitive to having GOOD ground. Might be a good time to remove and clean all of the ground connections and apply some dielectric grease
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'99 DB4 #104, '96 SB6 #1165, '94 DB2 J #652, '99 DB4 #088, '08 VTX1800, '93 ZXR750R M1, '95 ZXR750, '95 ZXR750 Race Bike, '94 CBR400rr NC29 Race Bike, '94 CB250, '49 BSA C10 250, '61 BSA A10 650, '89 ZXR750, '91 Ducati 851
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2bims



Joined: 03 Apr 2010
Posts: 7289

PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2020 9:02 am    Post subject: Re: Fixed !! Bad ground connections. Reply with quote

niels550 wrote:
OK.. Finally in disgust, I decided to attack it.

Too many elements had failed at the same time (neutral, indicators and starter) to blame any single element - it had to be the only thing they had in common. The electrical power supply.

Armed with a multimeter it became obvious that there was only about 9 volts in the system and then I went down chasing high resistances.

Long and short of it was that I cleaned up most of the terminals along the byzantine circuit path which Bimota laughingly refers to as their ground/negative line.

Turned the key and everything was back to normal. Neutral light was back, indicators worked and bike started.

Total time? About 30 minutes.


Apologies Neil....for not having tried to assist....I presume you found the "Stainless steel" earth bolt going into the Rear vertical cylinder on the LHS of the bike? Carrying around 8 or so earths tagged onto it?...THese are none to fur up and corrode....BUT...dont be blaming Bimota...thats the new earth lug that Ducati designed on those engines.....Bikes can be laid up for 6 months...and put on trickle charge to preserve the battery....BUT.....it doesnt stop corrosion on the electrical system....I've had it a few times with Bimotas......issues come spring summer time.....thus I now try to start and run each and every bike over winter at least once a fortnight....Electrical wires are like blood veins....they prefer to have juice running through them....the passage of such can burn off inherent corrosion within the wires....and italian wires arent reknowned for their quality
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niels550



Joined: 25 Apr 2016
Posts: 49

PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2020 5:53 am    Post subject: Re: Fixed !! Bad ground connections. Reply with quote

2bims wrote:
niels550 wrote:
OK.. Finally in disgust, I decided to attack it.

Too many elements had failed at the same time (neutral, indicators and starter) to blame any single element - it had to be the only thing they had in common. The electrical power supply.

Armed with a multimeter it became obvious that there was only about 9 volts in the system and then I went down chasing high resistances.

Long and short of it was that I cleaned up most of the terminals along the byzantine circuit path which Bimota laughingly refers to as their ground/negative line.

Turned the key and everything was back to normal. Neutral light was back, indicators worked and bike started.

Total time? About 30 minutes.


Apologies Neil....for not having tried to assist....I presume you found the "Stainless steel" earth bolt going into the Rear vertical cylinder on the LHS of the bike? Carrying around 8 or so earths tagged onto it?...THese are none to fur up and corrode....BUT...dont be blaming Bimota...thats the new earth lug that Ducati designed on those engines.....Bikes can be laid up for 6 months...and put on trickle charge to preserve the battery....BUT.....it doesnt stop corrosion on the electrical system....I've had it a few times with Bimotas......issues come spring summer time.....thus I now try to start and run each and every bike over winter at least once a fortnight....Electrical wires are like blood veins....they prefer to have juice running through them....the passage of such can burn off inherent corrosion within the wires....and italian wires arent reknowned for their quality


Stainless steel earth bolt? Yikes.... yet another worm hole to go down.

First thing tomorrow I’ll get onto it. Thanks, 2Bims.

In case anyone is interested, I use something called Corrosion-X. Truly Jesus Christ in a can. It has On occasion even revived corroded marine electrics and certainly keeps salt air corrosion at bay on boat electrics. Made in the USA.
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niels550



Joined: 25 Apr 2016
Posts: 49

PostPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2021 5:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK..gurus

Yet another gremlin has surfaced.

I left the bike at a suspension shop to get at the steering system - the nut holding the bell crank in position used to work loose. You could sort of reach it and tighten it up but it kept coming loose. It really needed a frame disassembly to to get at the various bolts and nuts, apply a thread lock adhesive and tighten it all back up again.

Anyhoo, bike was away for almost three months, one man shop, public holidays, too much work, etc etc.

So back to the new electrical problem.

Bloody thing will not start when its cold - its winter here but the daytime temperatures are +18C so not exactly icy. By European standards, its almost a heat wave

Once its up and running, it runs well and starts first thing when warm.

Any clues as to why it wont fire up?

Battery is full - thing lives on a trickle charger.
Sparks look ok. That it starts and runs when warm indicates its unlikely to be a timing issue. Also, brand new plugs installed, just in case.

So, that leaves fuel as the likely culprit. Looking for clues as to where I should start looking. Has anyone else encountered this with a 2 valve Ducati engine.?

Thanks...

niels
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niels550



Joined: 25 Apr 2016
Posts: 49

PostPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2021 8:38 am    Post subject: Part 2.. the plot thickens Reply with quote

So, the old girl cranks away at full speed but will not fire up..

And then as luck would have it, I had a friend over to demonstrate the lack of ignition ... except this time the battery trickle charger was connected.

You guessed it...... fired up after a couple of revolutions.

So, this tells me its a high resistance issue somewhere because the cranking drain on the battery results in a voltage drop then the point of high resistance (corrosion?) compounds that to the point that there is insufficient voltage somewhere to get the electrics/electronics working.

Looks like some laborious tracking down of wiring and the cleaning of terminals lie ahead for me.

Any suggestions as to where best to start looking?

How I long for the good old days of a simple engine, just a couple of carbs and points ignition system instead of finicky ECU's and fuel injection.
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Anders



Joined: 05 May 2009
Posts: 121
Location: Norway

PostPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2021 11:08 am    Post subject: Re: Part 2.. the plot thickens Reply with quote

niels550 wrote:
So, the old girl cranks away at full speed but will not fire up..

And then as luck would have it, I had a friend over to demonstrate the lack of ignition ... except this time the battery trickle charger was connected.

You guessed it...... fired up after a couple of revolutions.

So, this tells me its a high resistance issue somewhere because the cranking drain on the battery results in a voltage drop then the point of high resistance (corrosion?) compounds that to the point that there is insufficient voltage somewhere to get the electrics/electronics working.

Looks like some laborious tracking down of wiring and the cleaning of terminals lie ahead for me.

Any suggestions as to where best to start looking?

How I long for the good old days of a simple engine, just a couple of carbs and points ignition system instead of finicky ECU's and fuel injection.


I must say I doubt that the trickle charger does much in the way of keeping the voltage up when cranking the engine, unless its a really big one with tens of amps output. What I would do, is to measure the voltage at the ECU (or the 12v supply to the coils) when cranking, with and without the charger connected. That way, you will see how much voltage drop you have, and whether the charger really makes a difference.

And yes, I agree that corrosion can be an issue. How does your grounding points look? Is there any rust on the frame where the battery ground is connected?

Are you sure this is a missing spark problem? It could be a sensor problem, a faulty senosr letting the ECU believe that there is no need for cold starting enrichment.
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bb1, Mille S2, Guzzi / Watsonian, Morini Corsaro 125, EC200, RD350YPVS etc
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niels550



Joined: 25 Apr 2016
Posts: 49

PostPosted: Fri Jul 09, 2021 6:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Anders

Thanks..

At this stage, I'm sure of nothing.

But when the engine is warm, i.e. oil viscosity is less and thus drag on the starter motor is less and thus less amp draw on the battery, it will start ok without th being on the trickle charger.

It runs and idles just fine, even when stone cold which sort of makes me think the ECU and its sensors may not be the problem.

But hey, I'm famous for my numerous wrong assumptions and hypotheses in the past. No reason to suspect my form has changed for the better.

Been too busy to attack the bike - I'm off to give it a crack now with exactly the plan you suggested.

As far as corrosion goes, it all looks good - the bike is a 2017 with only 2000km on it. Having said that, I did have a corrosion / high resistance issue a while back on the ground side when I couldn't even get the starter to engage.

The battery is only one year old and has lived all it's life on a trickle charger - I have no reason to suspect that it has failed. But again, anything is possible.

You are correct that the measly 2A out of the trickle charger does nothing. I was merely guessing that it bumps the circuit voltage up by another say 0.3V.. .... just enough to energize the ECU??? Was thinking that say extra 0.3V was enough to creep over the threshold.

Will advise the outcome as soon as I get to the bottom of this gremlin.
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niels550



Joined: 25 Apr 2016
Posts: 49

PostPosted: Sun Jul 11, 2021 5:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Fat Lady has Sung!

After spending about 4 hours dicking around, I could find no drop in voltage nor increased resistance anywhere. In fact things were getting worse, now it wouldn't start at all even with the battery charger attached.

Finally in desperation, I put some jumper leads onto it and bingo!!... fired up.

It simply has to be the battery. In hindsight, the most obvious thing but it was only a year old and lived on a trickle charger and thus I refused to even consider it a possibility.

So I'm replacing it with a LiFePO4, should be in the mail in a couple of days.. Fingers crossed my problems are over.
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2bims



Joined: 03 Apr 2010
Posts: 7289

PostPosted: Sun Jul 11, 2021 6:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sounds odd....but my 3 year old tesi3d has cold start issues....cranks but no fire sometimes....fine when hot....i often see a flickering neutral light when i switch on....seems to fool the bike its in gear...but it isn't....so....i stand by the bike....kick up the kickstand and drop it into first....so there's no neutral light....pull clutch and start....yhen slip into neutral and back on its sidestand....its never failed since doing this...ive heard others do this with tesi3ds also....duc lumps are lazy to fire properly....tesi3ds seem to crank too much and not fire...try it
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Apollo2



Joined: 01 Feb 2021
Posts: 23
Location: FNL

PostPosted: Mon Jul 19, 2021 7:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As you have learned, it is a BAD IDEA to "let the battery live on a trickle charger."

Get a timer to turn lamps on and off in your house to make it look like someone is home. Put it in the garage. Set it to turn on for one hour per day and plug the trickle charger into that. One hour a day is enough to keep the battery topped up without overcharging it.
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vort28



Joined: 22 Mar 2010
Posts: 2194
Location: Northwest , UK

PostPosted: Mon Jul 19, 2021 9:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Apollo2 wrote:
As you have learned, it is a BAD IDEA to "let the battery live on a trickle charger."

Get a timer to turn lamps on and off in your house to make it look like someone is home. Put it in the garage. Set it to turn on for one hour per day and plug the trickle charger into that. One hour a day is enough to keep the battery topped up without overcharging it.


That's what i do. Got told many years ago by a battery shop that trickle/maintenance charges are not good for constant use on batteries.
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niels550



Joined: 25 Apr 2016
Posts: 49

PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2021 2:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I bought a Lithium battery exact same size as the Yuasa but with 420CCA.

That scared the Ducati engine into life. Now starts first time every time.

Looks like the original lead acid battery had a dying cell despite the fast cranking speed.

On the plus side, the Lithium doesn't need to be trickle charged.


2Bims : By the time I read your post, I had gone out and bought a Lithium battery. It does seem odd that your "clutch in / stand up" trick works... Probably too many confusing signals running into the ECU.

3 year old Tesi?... And here's silly old me thinking that I had the last one out of the factory before they went tits up. Mine is 38/40 of the "Annivesary" model.

Mind you, who knows what went on in Rimini in those days. Theres an Italian motorcycle journalist - Bruno Di Prato who had a very acerbic view of the owners of Bimota in those days.
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niels550



Joined: 25 Apr 2016
Posts: 49

PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2021 12:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

2bims wrote:
Sounds odd....but my 3 year old tesi3d has cold start issues....cranks but no fire sometimes....fine when hot....i often see a flickering neutral light when i switch on....seems to fool the bike its in gear...but it isn't....so....i stand by the bike....kick up the kickstand and drop it into first....so there's no neutral light....pull clutch and start....yhen slip into neutral and back on its sidestand....its never failed since doing this...ive heard others do this with tesi3ds also....duc lumps are lazy to fire properly....tesi3ds seem to crank too much and not fire...try it



OK... So the Lithium didn't work after a week or two.

In desperation, I tried this technique... and WTF!!!.. it works!!


2 Bims....Thank you very much for your advice...

But why does it work? Surely, in gear with clutch in there's even more drag on the starter motor meaning more amps drawn meaning less voltage. Trying to get my head around this is my Homer Simpson moment...
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