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Vdue-pt
Joined: 02 Jun 2014
Posts: 108
Location: North Portugal
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Bud977
Joined: 03 Mar 2013
Posts: 525
Location: Sydney
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 Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2014 3:28 am Post subject: |
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| That motor cleaned up nicely. I've never seen a V Due that looked so used. How many kms had it done? |
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SB8R Tuner
Joined: 29 Nov 2010
Posts: 83
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| Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2014 4:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Vdue-pt wrote: |
| The only difference between this system and the one that came out on the production bikes concerning the air box was the attachment the rest of the air box was the same in both versions. |
Putting the mechanical engineering and manufacturing hat on, I fail to see how the production airbox will fit on the throttle bodies in the brochure picture you posted. There is nothing I see in that picture or the others in the brochure where any type of ring or flange will mount on those throttle bodies. Also, if you look at the two different throttle bodies you will notice that they have different bore sizes and the production model has a progressive throttle linkage along with staggered bores, where the other does not. Given that all of us who own one of these works of art know how two strokes act, just think what it would be like with the larger, non-progression throttle bodies. It would not be as streetable as with the ones that are on the production bikes.
Do we need to get into the expansion chambers that are in the brochure pics verses what came with the production bikes?
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Bimota SB8R
Bimota V-Due
Bimota SB8R
Suzuki 1988 GSXR-750
Suzuki 1989 GSXR-750R |
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Vdue-pt
Joined: 02 Jun 2014
Posts: 108
Location: North Portugal
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| Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2014 8:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Bud977 wrote: |
| That motor cleaned up nicely. I've never seen a V Due that looked so used. How many kms had it done? |
Yes the engine seemed another one…
You are referring about witch Vdue the Iniezione or the Trofeo?
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Vdue-pt
Joined: 02 Jun 2014
Posts: 108
Location: North Portugal
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| Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2014 8:45 pm Post subject: |
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| SB8R Tuner wrote: |
Putting the mechanical engineering and manufacturing hat on, I fail to see how the production airbox will fit on the throttle bodies in the brochure picture you posted. There is nothing I see in that picture or the others in the brochure where any type of ring or flange will mount on those throttle bodies. Also, if you look at the two different throttle bodies you will notice that they have different bore sizes and the production model has a progressive throttle linkage along with staggered bores, where the other does not. Given that all of us who own one of these works of art know how two strokes act, just think what it would be like with the larger, non-progression throttle bodies. It would not be as streetable as with the ones that are on the production bikes.
Do we need to get into the expansion chambers that are in the brochure pics verses what came with the production bikes? |
Obviously if I talk about the attachment I’m referring to the all back side of the centre air box that is different.
Concerning your opinion about the system on the photo, unfortunately I never had the opportunity to test the pre-production bike that had the system I can only write (in this case) referring to what was explained to me by the main test rider of the Vdue, he is the first to tell how perfect and much more effective was the Magneti Marelli system even speaking about consumption, also because the system had a lot more sensors and parameters to have a perfect carburetion in almost all the conditions, much like the modern 4 stoke injection systems in hyper sport bikes.
The Magneti Marelli system as the modern injection systems have the air induction much like carburettors and if you look at this picture you have the feeling that you are looking at the Aeromachi-Bimota 2 stroke 500cc racing bike that had 2 small carburettors per cylinder, just a little "know how" to explain the long induction pipes, the longest the best low and middle range power band you have.
Concerning the expansion chambers well the ones you see on the first catalogues of the bike are the ones mounted on the only Vdue that is in Bimota Rimini, and the Sergio Robiano bike also has them, those were made by Jollymoto if I’m not mistaken and were in Titanium, if you are interested I think that I can get you a brand new set.
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SB8R Tuner
Joined: 29 Nov 2010
Posts: 83
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| Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2014 10:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Vdue-pt wrote: |
| SB8R Tuner wrote: |
Putting the mechanical engineering and manufacturing hat on, I fail to see how the production airbox will fit on the throttle bodies in the brochure picture you posted. There is nothing I see in that picture or the others in the brochure where any type of ring or flange will mount on those throttle bodies. Also, if you look at the two different throttle bodies you will notice that they have different bore sizes and the production model has a progressive throttle linkage along with staggered bores, where the other does not. Given that all of us who own one of these works of art know how two strokes act, just think what it would be like with the larger, non-progression throttle bodies. It would not be as streetable as with the ones that are on the production bikes.
Do we need to get into the expansion chambers that are in the brochure pics verses what came with the production bikes? |
Obviously if I talk about the attachment I’m referring to the all back side of the centre air box that is different.
Concerning your opinion about the system on the photo, unfortunately I never had the opportunity to test the pre-production bike that had the system I can only write (in this case) referring to what was explained to me by the main test rider of the Vdue, he is the first to tell how perfect and much more effective was the Magneti Marelli system even speaking about consumption, also because the system had a lot more sensors and parameters to have a perfect carburetion in almost all the conditions, much like the modern 4 stoke injection systems in hyper sport bikes.
The Magneti Marelli system as the modern injection systems have the air induction much like carburettors and if you look at this picture you have the feeling that you are looking at the Aeromachi-Bimota 2 stroke 500cc racing bike that had 2 small carburettors per cylinder, just a little "know how" to explain the long induction pipes, the longest the best low and middle range power band you have.
Concerning the expansion chambers well the ones you see on the first catalogues of the bike are the ones mounted on the only Vdue that is in Bimota Rimini, and the Sergio Robiano bike also has them, those were made by Jollymoto if I’m not mistaken and were in Titanium, if you are interested I think that I can get you a brand new set. |
I know the backside of the airbox would have to be different, I still do not see the ability to have the backside of the airbox seal against any flange that could be affixed to the throttle bodies. Also one note, carburetors are different from throttle bodies. Carburetors work off of Bernoulli's principle, where throttle bodies do not. We are talking about throttle bodies not carbs.
As far as the difference between the Magnetti Marelli and TDD Walbro systems. I have worked with both of them along with the Motec-800 systems. I have reverse engineered the TDD Walbro system on the V-Due and I can say I know a lot about the unit. The problem didn't reside with not having enough sensors. Using the Alpha N strategy, all you need is TPS, water & air temp, air pressure and RPM. The problem was with the code. When I get the chance to finish my V-Due and test the new code and all works correctly, I will sell upgrades for the ecu. The TDD Walbro system that was delivered with the production bikes is also used on some other manufactures motorcycles with great success. Bimota, as they have always done, did not have the bike tuned to the absolute best it could be. As far as they were concerned if it was rideable, ship it! I know this from experience and not second hand knowledge!
If the expansion chambers on the bike in the brochure are Ti, I will sell everything and quit! I have NEVER NEVER seen Titanium welds look like a steel weld!! A mentor of mine welds Ti systems all the time for people and myself and I would be most pissed off if they looked like the photos in the brochure. As far as needing your help on getting a set of chambers, I have that covered.
Here are a couple of pics of a O2 bung and a EGT bung I had welded in my Moto Corse Ti Tunnel Port Exhaust for my SB8R.
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Bimota SB8R
Bimota V-Due
Bimota SB8R
Suzuki 1988 GSXR-750
Suzuki 1989 GSXR-750R |
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Vdue-pt
Joined: 02 Jun 2014
Posts: 108
Location: North Portugal
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| Posted: Fri Jun 06, 2014 7:25 am Post subject: |
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| SB8R Tuner wrote: |
| As far as the difference between the Magnetti Marelli and TDD Walbro systems. I have worked with both of them along with the Motec-800 systems. I have reverse engineered the TDD Walbro system on the V-Due and I can say I know a lot about the unit. The problem didn't reside with not having enough sensors. Using the Alpha N strategy, all you need is TPS, water & air temp, air pressure and RPM. The problem was with the code. When I get the chance to finish my V-Due and test the new code and all works correctly, I will sell upgrades for the ecu. The TDD Walbro system that was delivered with the production bikes is also used on some other manufactures motorcycles with great success. Bimota, as they have always done, did not have the bike tuned to the absolute best it could be. As far as they were concerned if it was rideable, ship it! I know this from experience and not second hand knowledge! |
I love to have this kind of discussions but privately, nevertheless concerning the sensor as on the Aprila RS 250 prototype with an 2 stroke engine developed internally (like usual than made in Rotax) V2 90º direct injection also with the Magneti Marelli system, they had the normal sensor like you say, but like in the first RSV Mille the air temp sensor was placed on the beginning of the air intake, then the air pressure sensor on the air box, TPS, RPM, Pickup sensor, water temp, exhaust sensor in both and also exhaust valve position sensor, but also this was a “Screamer” type engine not “big-bang” like the Vdue, and this 250cc was tuned to have at front sprocket 98 cv, this was on both prototypes made that after Piaggio take over were thrown to the bottom of a warehouse and for what I know never saw the day light again, I was fortunate to have the opportunity of riding one in 2003.
And also I agree with you that the problem in the first units of the Vdue that came to the market was with the code and the lack of development of the system, because a work of more than 2 years with the Magneti Marelli system was left aside and they had about 4 months to put the bikes working with the Walbro system…
So problems surely would came out, because do you know many guys in Bimota worked on the development of the all bike?
Today the Walbro system after passing to Athena and being developed by the old responsible from the “Aprilia Reparto Corse” with all that knowledge from the best 2 stroke engines ever made, is considered by everyone the best 2 stroke injection system…
I also know that the last version of the Vdue engine was already tested with this “new” system from Athena with great results.
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Vdue-pt
Joined: 02 Jun 2014
Posts: 108
Location: North Portugal
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| Posted: Fri Jun 06, 2014 7:43 am Post subject: |
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| SB8R Tuner wrote: |
| If the expansion chambers on the bike in the brochure are Ti, I will sell everything and quit! I have NEVER NEVER seen Titanium welds look like a steel weld!! A mentor of mine welds Ti systems all the time for people and myself and I would be most pissed off if they looked like the photos in the brochure. As far as needing your help on getting a set of chambers, I have that covered. |
First you cant compare the construction and mounting of an exhaust for a 4 stroke to one made for a 2 stroke…
The thickness of the material is different there are a lot of little pieces to be welded together on a 2 stroke, on 2 strokes there aren’t bended tubes it’s all made with little pieces of fine metal sheet welded together and obviously on prototypes the finishing isn’t exactly the same as in the production, like on the racing material and on the road use material…
But you were talking about this one:
Or about this one:
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Vdue-pt
Joined: 02 Jun 2014
Posts: 108
Location: North Portugal
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Vdue-pt
Joined: 02 Jun 2014
Posts: 108
Location: North Portugal
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Vdue-pt
Joined: 02 Jun 2014
Posts: 108
Location: North Portugal
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Vdue-pt
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Weed
Joined: 29 Dec 2013
Posts: 250
Location: Perth Australia
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| Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2014 12:23 am Post subject: |
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| SB8R Tuner wrote: |
As far as the difference between the Magnetti Marelli and TDD Walbro systems. I have worked with both of them along with the Motec-800 systems. I have reverse engineered the TDD Walbro system on the V-Due and I can say I know a lot about the unit. The problem didn't reside with not having enough sensors. Using the Alpha N strategy, all you need is TPS, water & air temp, air pressure and RPM. The problem was with the code. When I get the chance to finish my V-Due and test the new code and all works correctly, I will sell upgrades for the ecu. The TDD Walbro system that was delivered with the production bikes is also used on some other manufactures motorcycles with great success. Bimota, as they have always done, did not have the bike tuned to the absolute best it could be. As far as they were concerned if it was rideable, ship it! I know this from experience and not second hand knowledge!
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One of the problems with the Walbro system is that it has only 2 drivers for the injectors which means both injectors in each barrel have to be fired together. This makes low load tuning very difficult if not impossible.
A friend, who is quite knowledgeable in ECU injection systems, commented that the Walbro system is more late 80's technology and not mid 90's hence probably the superior performance of the Magneti Marelli system. |
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Vdue-pt
Joined: 02 Jun 2014
Posts: 108
Location: North Portugal
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| Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2014 10:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Weed wrote: |
One of the problems with the Walbro system is that it has only 2 drivers for the injectors which means both injectors in each barrel have to be fired together. This makes low load tuning very difficult if not impossible.
A friend, who is quite knowledgeable in ECU injection systems, commented that the Walbro system is more late 80's technology and not mid 90's hence probably the superior performance of the Magneti Marelli system. |
Totally agree with you!
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Vdue-pt
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Location: North Portugal
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