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V Due engine (full fat on carbs)
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Gavin944888



Joined: 29 Jan 2014
Posts: 572
Location: Essex....way South of Scotland

PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2020 9:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gentlefolk of the forum,


Still on Shut Down....but there was some activity.

The fuel tank is a work of art and was reflected in the £1400 price tag.

So you can imagine by feelings at taking a cutting disc to it






[img]IMAG0514 by bear (as in animal ..not gay idol), on Flickr[/img]




[img]IMAG0513 by bear (as in animal ..not gay idol), on Flickr[/img]



The cut out sections were to allow clearance for the shock rocker assembly and the ‘arty’ frame tube relief.




[img]IMAG0512 by bear (as in animal ..not gay idol), on Flickr[/img]




It sat arround the work shop violated and open like an unwanted piece of work.


The COVID shut down meant that jobs that could be put off ....were.....until there was nothing left.

So....eventually the tank got some work done to it.......first up was the cylinder head clearance on the upright cylinder.




[img]IMAG0725 by bear (as in animal ..not gay idol), on Flickr[/img]






Next........ was the shock absorber rocker assembly cut out allowing it all to work with the tank in place.






[img]IMAG0727 by bear (as in animal ..not gay idol), on Flickr[/img]





The fuel taps were sized as per the Cagiva 125 and deemed too small.....so it was blanked up and welded.





[img]IMAG0726 by bear (as in animal ..not gay idol), on Flickr[/img]




The underside of the tank showing the work and welding from a different angle.



[img]IMAG0720 by bear (as in animal ..not gay idol), on Flickr[/img]





The new fuel outlets 8mm internal dia feeding straight inti QD beak lines then onto a Yamaha R6 fuel pump as recommended by Guido.





[img]IMAG0723 by bear (as in animal ..not gay idol), on Flickr[/img]





With the tank now welded....over 10 hours of welding time inclluding preperation and pre heating..(2hours worth overall)..it is done....I am happy with my tank again.




More to follow


regards


Gavin
The Scottish Engineer
_________________
On an Island in the River Thames!

Cagiva Elefant 888/955 & adventure sidecar
Cagiva Elefant 999r engined
Cagiva BIMOTA Motard Concept
BIMOTA DB9 (with DB11 rear-end)
BIMOTA DB7-11 VLX MULE (build coming to an end)
BIMOTA DB11 VLX Supercharger


Last edited by Gavin944888 on Thu Apr 23, 2020 4:35 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Gavin944888



Joined: 29 Jan 2014
Posts: 572
Location: Essex....way South of Scotland

PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2020 9:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello............2bims, yes I am happy with my cap head bolts M4 holding the hugger on.

However, if you have something more suited and free of charge I am happy to find a use ...a good use..for them.



Back to the build.




When I first penned this conversion I need something a bit bigger than the standard issue.

I loved the Bimota DB1 from afar......but it was just TOO small.


Like wise the SuperCity...better..but still no more than a commuter. Its like a 55 year old guy wearing torn designer jeans, deck shoes and a cravatte.....stupid.


So my idea was to built it bigger, wider and taller. Here you can see the stretched tank next to the donor.





[img]IMAG0737 by bear (as in animal ..not gay idol), on Flickr[/img]




I tried to follow all the origonal lines but stretched out the finished item.

Here you can see the deeper sections and wider tank top and an HGV alloy fuel filler.






[img]IMAG0738 by bear (as in animal ..not gay idol), on Flickr[/img]





I tried to keep the angle lines as the front fairing runs in these channels and bolts up onto that cross plate bracket.





[img]IMAG0736 by bear (as in animal ..not gay idol), on Flickr[/img]





That triangular section allows the seat to fit flush and push againts that front edge in the enduro style.......so it had to be copied.





[img]IMAG0735 by bear (as in animal ..not gay idol), on Flickr[/img]





A BIG thank you to Shaun the Fabricater down in Bournemouth.....a class act and a skill as good as I have seen.



More to follow.

regards

Gavin
The Scottish Engineer.
_________________
On an Island in the River Thames!

Cagiva Elefant 888/955 & adventure sidecar
Cagiva Elefant 999r engined
Cagiva BIMOTA Motard Concept
BIMOTA DB9 (with DB11 rear-end)
BIMOTA DB7-11 VLX MULE (build coming to an end)
BIMOTA DB11 VLX Supercharger
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Gavin944888



Joined: 29 Jan 2014
Posts: 572
Location: Essex....way South of Scotland

PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2020 10:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello..................more swarf off of the workshop flor.


One on the issues is always side stands.....every project I have ever built gets used and as such needs a side stand.

This thing is no different and I had made way back at the planning stage a position to utilize the last engine bolt....and a sidestand


Whilst things were coming to a lull, I turned some material and my attention to making something suitable.


A section of frame tube cut off and the already made bolt bosses were married up.




[img]IMAG0719 by bear (as in animal ..not gay idol), on Flickr[/img]





The tube was cold bent and welded up to a half circle section made to fit the bottom engine boss on the frame.




[img]IMAG0718 by bear (as in animal ..not gay idol), on Flickr[/img]




This allows the last engine bolt to be used and will match all other engine bolt bosses on the build.







[img]IMAG0717 by bear (as in animal ..not gay idol), on Flickr[/img]





Here you can see how it is going to work.


There will be two pinch bolts welded top and bottom to the half cup section.

Then the other cut off half section (not as yet used) will form a clamp on the frame engine bottom tube.

Whilst the front section of this side stand assembly will be bolted up via the engine bolt.

A standard issue Ducati non suicide stand will be fitted to a plate yet to be welded to the sidetand engine tube rail....and Bob is your Uncle....so to speak.



That takes care of another job....I am even trying to incorporate a chain roller onto the the other half of the side stand clamp....killing two jobs in one.

more to follow


regrads

Gavin
The Scottish Engineer.
_________________
On an Island in the River Thames!

Cagiva Elefant 888/955 & adventure sidecar
Cagiva Elefant 999r engined
Cagiva BIMOTA Motard Concept
BIMOTA DB9 (with DB11 rear-end)
BIMOTA DB7-11 VLX MULE (build coming to an end)
BIMOTA DB11 VLX Supercharger
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Gavin944888



Joined: 29 Jan 2014
Posts: 572
Location: Essex....way South of Scotland

PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2020 10:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Electrics.................I hate electrics!


Ferret the Electrical Wizard, was happy to wire the bike, but on his terms.

Guido....requested that the bike be set to hime with or without wiring....he cared not a jot.

But being a bit of a control person the idea of it being away in Germany for a long time did not appeal.

But...I had just bought a expensive NEW EVO engine and carbs and had no experience in setting it up....and needed Guido.

I came up with a plan.

The intention was to get the bike wired but not the ZEELTRONIC system fitted....leave that to Guido...he knows what to do.

Ferret did not want to do this....as he wants to finish his work...run the bike...and test..then give it back and collect the monies.

All good....but a ZERO mile engine in the hands of someone else fitting the FRP ignition did not appeal.

Guido FRP said that he was happy to have the bike as it stood he would finsh and test....so there you go.......except COVID happened

Germany was shut down and it looks like nothing can move....from the UK to Germany unless medical related.


So ....I go about building a tray and positioning stuff like servo motor, rectifier, soleniods etc ...not forgeting the ECU.







[img]IMAG0729 by bear (as in animal ..not gay idol), on Flickr[/img]




First up .....the MofSet rectifier that was kicking about spare after the VLX build (which in May 2020 has been at the wiring shop for 22 months)





[img]IMAG0728 by bear (as in animal ..not gay idol), on Flickr[/img]




Then the Zeeltronic...which is pre wired and kind of dictates where it wants to go....there are multi pin plugs joing the FRP supplied loom.




[img]IMAG0730 by bear (as in animal ..not gay idol), on Flickr[/img]



The Zeeltronic system from Guido includes ....

coils on a carbon fibre back plate, wired to the ECU.... sevo unit again wired and a host of sensor connections that might as well be LATIN.



[img]IMAG0625 by bear (as in animal ..not gay idol), on Flickr[/img]






[img]IMAG0731 by bear (as in animal ..not gay idol), on Flickr[/img]




I have used this time to contact a Mr Rupert Paul....ex editor of Performance Bikes who makes his living designing and building wiring looms.

After much discussion ...he has agreed to design, fit and test a loom in order for GUIDO to run the bike then after Dyno and set up....

The bike will come back to the UK ...go to Rupert to complete the loom to the specificaion and gauges requested.

This will keep all the warranties re: engine, electronics etc etc....as Rupert does not need to run the bike to test.



I am hoping this works out and uses the dead time we find ourselves in.

More in a week or so....when the coloing system is tackled...not sure about this as I have changed a few things...Ho Hum


regards

Gavin
The Scottish Engineer
_________________
On an Island in the River Thames!

Cagiva Elefant 888/955 & adventure sidecar
Cagiva Elefant 999r engined
Cagiva BIMOTA Motard Concept
BIMOTA DB9 (with DB11 rear-end)
BIMOTA DB7-11 VLX MULE (build coming to an end)
BIMOTA DB11 VLX Supercharger
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Gavin944888



Joined: 29 Jan 2014
Posts: 572
Location: Essex....way South of Scotland

PostPosted: Fri Apr 24, 2020 7:44 am    Post subject: Cooling Assistance Reply with quote

Morning to you all....I have a question.

Regarding the cooling system.... I am unsure if I have seen anything quite as 'this needs hidden behind a fairing' as the OEM system.

Bearing in mind my project is semi naked and as such, a lot of the pipes will be shown.

I have dismantled the OEM system and re-jigged it and I do not know if there was a REASON for the previous OEM route.

My changes are .....I have the outlet from the water pump going straight to the radiator bottom feed, via the thermostat.

Just before the thermostat there is a small bypass pipe in order to relieve pressure on the pump when the stat is closed...this 8mm pipe feeds onto the radiator bottom outlet and allows a 'small' amount of water to bypass.

This is basically a Ducati systems and the bypass pipe and stat are in my new VDue position....but the by pass feeds into the cylinder circuit until the stat is open.

My system takes the cylinders hot water and feeds the stat immediately after the pump...not after the pump...through the radiator and out the rad top outlet then the stat.....as the normal VDue...am I missing something?

The cylinder top feeds are still being fed via the top radiator outlet and 'some' water movement in the radiator is happening, even with the stat closed due to my bypass pipe.

I cannot say the same for the OEM system, as the heads are fed after the rad and the stat plus the OEM bypass seems to go back to the other side 'hot side' and not onwards into a safety loop...to flow something

I have my system....it is not mine, but you get my drift, on many other bikes and never had an issue BUT the OEM VDue system is alien in it use to me.

I do not want to re-invent the wheel...I am not clever enough....but trying to get a 'clean' look is very difficult if I just bolt on the VDue cooling system.


You help would be good

regards


Gavin
The Scottish Engineer
_________________
On an Island in the River Thames!

Cagiva Elefant 888/955 & adventure sidecar
Cagiva Elefant 999r engined
Cagiva BIMOTA Motard Concept
BIMOTA DB9 (with DB11 rear-end)
BIMOTA DB7-11 VLX MULE (build coming to an end)
BIMOTA DB11 VLX Supercharger
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brian



Joined: 22 Aug 2011
Posts: 3769
Location: Australia

PostPosted: Fri Apr 24, 2020 12:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

FUCK...... I love that tank Gav.

But that tube looks heavy.

I’m no help with the cooling system sorry, still drooling over the tank Cool
_________________
'99 DB4 #104, '96 SB6 #1165, '94 DB2 J #652, '99 DB4 #088, '08 VTX1800, '93 ZXR750R M1, '95 ZXR750, '95 ZXR750 Race Bike, '94 CBR400rr NC29 Race Bike, '94 CB250, '49 BSA C10 250, '61 BSA A10 650, '89 ZXR750, '91 Ducati 851
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Weed



Joined: 29 Dec 2013
Posts: 250
Location: Perth Australia

PostPosted: Sat Apr 25, 2020 4:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gav,
The radiator bottom outlet of the radiator goes to the top connector on the pump. From there it goes from the pump outlet into a hard pipe that feeds the base of each cylinder. The water then goes to the outlets on the heads. The outlet of each head then connects into a single pipe that then feed to the thermostat & bypass pipe and then onto the top radiator connector. I have a few photos if you need them. If I read your post correctly, you want to feed the pump inlet from the top radiator connection which is not a good idea as these water pumps need a flooded inlet that does not allow air pockets to develop. You mention the Ducati system but it has a flooded inlet to the pump & as with the VDue, the thermostat is on the return line to the top radiator inlet.
Cheers
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Weed



Joined: 29 Dec 2013
Posts: 250
Location: Perth Australia

PostPosted: Sat Apr 25, 2020 4:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gav,
The radiator bottom outlet of the radiator goes to the top connector on the pump. From there it goes from the pump outlet into a hard pipe that feeds the base of each cylinder. The water then goes to the outlets on the heads. The outlet of each head then connects into a single pipe that then feed to the thermostat & bypass pipe and then onto the top radiator connector. I have a few photos if you need them. If I read your post correctly, you want to feed the pump inlet from the top radiator connection which is not a good idea as these water pumps generally need a flooded inlet that does not allow air pockets to develop. You mention the Ducati system but it has a flooded inlet to the pump & as with the VDue, the thermostat is on the return line to the top radiator inlet.
Cheers
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2bims



Joined: 03 Apr 2010
Posts: 7289

PostPosted: Sat Apr 25, 2020 6:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cheers for the weed....as Gav is trying to get his head around a bike that needs to get up to temp to warm it up and run right.....like all 2-strokes that stutter until "up to temp" and not like a 4 stroke that just runs right from the get go...

I understand the plumbing a "little".....but basically the bypass is used by the system only until it gets too warm and then the thermostat opens and allows it through the rad thru the larger tube on the large alloy "gubbins" Heath Robinson unit? If I'm right?

The forward facing inlet on the water pump unit on the engine being the inlet....and the rear facing one the outlet?....What is the meaning of a "flooded" inlet on the water pump?....is it that its fed from the bottom of the rad to give it a head of pressure so that it doesnt generate air pockets? And effectively stops it getting air-locked in the system? When my Vdue coolant system was drained recently.....2 colours of fluids came out....one colour first and then another after....presumably meaning I had an airlock in my system at the time?...ANy help would be appreciated...and yes...photos.....theres Gav trying to get his head around it....using a triple core rad for "extra" cooling and possibly a fan....but I think that they run better with a less efficient cooling system as they need to be UP to temperature and not DOWN to a temp....thoughts?
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Gavin944888



Joined: 29 Jan 2014
Posts: 572
Location: Essex....way South of Scotland

PostPosted: Sat Apr 25, 2020 7:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Weed...many thanks but I am still at a loss.

Here is why:

assuming that the pump works like every other pump ie the inlet is in the centre of the scroll and the outlet is is on the dia..

.....then the heads are feeding the pump...as their pipes bend round and into the pump

And the outlet from the pump is feeding the bottom inlet of the rad....in this case the heads/ cylinders are last to be cooled on the circuit.

The only way they could be first on the circuit is if the water from pump came out of the centre of the pump and went to the heads.....

that means the bottom of the rad is feeding the pump rather than being fed from the pump

Could someone advise......I am not saying that this is unlikely but normally the middle of a scroll pump is the feed

Any Greek blokes called Archimedes ....out there

Thanks

Gavin
The Scottish Engineer
_________________
On an Island in the River Thames!

Cagiva Elefant 888/955 & adventure sidecar
Cagiva Elefant 999r engined
Cagiva BIMOTA Motard Concept
BIMOTA DB9 (with DB11 rear-end)
BIMOTA DB7-11 VLX MULE (build coming to an end)
BIMOTA DB11 VLX Supercharger
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Gavin944888



Joined: 29 Jan 2014
Posts: 572
Location: Essex....way South of Scotland

PostPosted: Sat Apr 25, 2020 8:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay....bear in mind the engine is 28 miles away ......Hence Muppet time! No engine to look at

Just had a good look on the web and found an (really) old VDue engine image which had both feeds going from the pump to the bottom of the cylinders...on the pump casting.....and the inlet coming out and turning at 90 degrees into the rad bottom outlet

This now makes sense, although at first glance illogical....it appears that the rad drains into the pump and then feeds the cylinders ...
then the cylinders exit the heads into the stat.....from the stat...into the top of the rad.

Is this correct...if so ...it is backwards but hey ho.

Ducati engine lay shaft to camshaft run in reverse and caused many issues with the Supercharger...but once my head was there ..it was ok.

I think it might be the same with the VDue.....hot water comes from head to stat to top rad inlet...
then drains down charging the pump which feeds the bottom of the cylinders and up to heads again

A Box of Frogs as a company logo has never been more appliciable

Please tell me this assumption on coolant flow is correct


Regards

Gavin
The Scottish Engineer
_________________
On an Island in the River Thames!

Cagiva Elefant 888/955 & adventure sidecar
Cagiva Elefant 999r engined
Cagiva BIMOTA Motard Concept
BIMOTA DB9 (with DB11 rear-end)
BIMOTA DB7-11 VLX MULE (build coming to an end)
BIMOTA DB11 VLX Supercharger
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Weed



Joined: 29 Dec 2013
Posts: 250
Location: Perth Australia

PostPosted: Sat Apr 25, 2020 11:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gavin944888 wrote:
Okay....bear in mind the engine is 28 miles away ......Hence Muppet time! No engine to look at

Just had a good look on the web and found an (really) old VDue engine image which had both feeds going from the pump to the bottom of the cylinders...on the pump casting.....and the inlet coming out and turning at 90 degrees into the rad bottom outlet

This now makes sense, although at first glance illogical....it appears that the rad drains into the pump and then feeds the cylinders ...
then the cylinders exit the heads into the stat.....from the stat...into the top of the rad.

Is this correct...if so ...it is backwards but hey ho.

Ducati engine lay shaft to camshaft run in reverse and caused many issues with the Supercharger...but once my head was there ..it was ok.

I think it might be the same with the VDue.....hot water comes from head to stat to top rad inlet...
then drains down charging the pump which feeds the bottom of the cylinders and up to heads again

A Box of Frogs as a company logo has never been more appliciable

Please tell me this assumption on coolant flow is correct


Regards

Gavin
The Scottish Engineer

This one is correct mate. Feed to the pump goes to the top of the pump & the outlet is in the centre. When you get your head around that there is a bleed for want of a better word at the base of each cylinder & on my bike one went to the radiator & the other went to the overflow bottle which meant that the bike did not run a pressurised cooling system. Not a big issue as these bikes should run at around the 60 deg C give or take.
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Gavin944888



Joined: 29 Jan 2014
Posts: 572
Location: Essex....way South of Scotland

PostPosted: Sat Apr 25, 2020 12:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you

Regards
Gavin
_________________
On an Island in the River Thames!

Cagiva Elefant 888/955 & adventure sidecar
Cagiva Elefant 999r engined
Cagiva BIMOTA Motard Concept
BIMOTA DB9 (with DB11 rear-end)
BIMOTA DB7-11 VLX MULE (build coming to an end)
BIMOTA DB11 VLX Supercharger
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brian



Joined: 22 Aug 2011
Posts: 3769
Location: Australia

PostPosted: Sat Apr 25, 2020 11:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Weed wrote:
Gavin944888 wrote:
Okay....bear in mind the engine is 28 miles away ......Hence Muppet time! No engine to look at

Just had a good look on the web and found an (really) old VDue engine image which had both feeds going from the pump to the bottom of the cylinders...on the pump casting.....and the inlet coming out and turning at 90 degrees into the rad bottom outlet

This now makes sense, although at first glance illogical....it appears that the rad drains into the pump and then feeds the cylinders ...
then the cylinders exit the heads into the stat.....from the stat...into the top of the rad.

Is this correct...if so ...it is backwards but hey ho.

Ducati engine lay shaft to camshaft run in reverse and caused many issues with the Supercharger...but once my head was there ..it was ok.

I think it might be the same with the VDue.....hot water comes from head to stat to top rad inlet...
then drains down charging the pump which feeds the bottom of the cylinders and up to heads again

A Box of Frogs as a company logo has never been more appliciable

Please tell me this assumption on coolant flow is correct


Regards

Gavin
The Scottish Engineer

This one is correct mate. Feed to the pump goes to the top of the pump & the outlet is in the centre. When you get your head around that there is a bleed for want of a better word at the base of each cylinder & on my bike one went to the radiator & the other went to the overflow bottle which meant that the bike did not run a pressurised cooling system. Not a big issue as these bikes should run at around the 60 deg C give or take.


Well that would have thrown me off track too, I’ve never seen a pump configured like that (discharge from the centre).
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'99 DB4 #104, '96 SB6 #1165, '94 DB2 J #652, '99 DB4 #088, '08 VTX1800, '93 ZXR750R M1, '95 ZXR750, '95 ZXR750 Race Bike, '94 CBR400rr NC29 Race Bike, '94 CB250, '49 BSA C10 250, '61 BSA A10 650, '89 ZXR750, '91 Ducati 851
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Bud977



Joined: 03 Mar 2013
Posts: 525
Location: Sydney

PostPosted: Sat Apr 25, 2020 11:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Water coolant pumps are centrifugal pumps - the water goes in the centre and the vanes throw it to the outside. It doesn't work the other way around.



The coolant is drawn from the outlet in the bottom of the radiator. That way, you are assured of getting water regardless of the water level in the radiator. It goes to the centre of the water pump.

The water pump outlet then pumps the coolant through the engine where it gets heated up and returns to the top of the radiator. Then it gets cooled going back down to the bottom of the radiator, and then around we go again.

Hope that helps.
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